Episode 10 (season 2) Deniza Miftari about identity, role models, the importance of network and well-being in the workplace

You talked about a side activity, for you still a bit in the leisure sphere, but there you are even more concerned with the theme of inclusion and diversity than in your current job. Because you have something to say about it from your own experience and have built up expertise in it.

Yes. I was actually always working on it. Especially in terms of integration, I don't think I had much difficulty integrating. I don't think many young children who come here have to integrate very actively. Going to school helps a lot with that.

I think that major integration challenges lie with adults. But if we look for an appropriate identity that is a good mix of both, but that you still feel good about, what is always a challenge for me is belonging. At the moment I don't have the feeling that I belong 100% in Flanders, or 100% in Kosovo.

And I sometimes look for that, my Kosovan identity, by physically going there and feeling okay again. I just need to be shocked one more time that I'm not 100% Kosovan. Because if I've been here too long, spent the years in Belgium, I feel myself uprooted or something.

So I think that feeling of longing for belonging characterizes a lot of my life. Because it is a constant adjustment or starting to behave in a socially desirable manner. And these are things that I sometimes see in other people of my age with a migration background.

I have a friend of Moroccan origin. And I can recognize very well, this is very socially desirable in this setting because there are Flemish people. But we don't do that consciously. That's such a learned automatism. And that's a shame because you just don't always know: Am I who I am? These are the questions I deal with in my spare time.

I studied social work out of the great commitment and desire to have an impact. And also with the dream of one day going back to my country and doing something of a project. And then in my final year I could choose an elective path or specialization path and I opted for migration and intercultural work, which included a bit of a diversity policy.

Why is diversity interesting for organizations and companies? Then I thought: What does that have to do with it and even with non-profit and private life. Never thought about it before and then discovered that there are even revenue models attached to it. And then I really had the question of whether it makes perfect sense to recruit diversely and work with diverse people. Why don't we do that? A bit from very naive questions of course. I thought that was super normal now. I can still see diagrams and tables in my mind, because I still have photos of them. I also started reading books about, say, you have a project that you want to brainstorm about. It's a group of people who are very similar brainstorming about that. The same background, same studies, exactly the same clothing style, ... that really went a long way. And then you have a group of very diverse people brainstorming around that project and just the success rate of that second project was so much greater than that first project, because they also constantly confirm each other. They are in the same mindset. And that was that. That brainstorming was done much faster with the first than with the second, because with the second there were a lot of disagreements. You had to convince and argue with each other. And I find that super interesting to see and it just always makes so much sense. You read that, you come up with a framework around it or you know, ... I experienced that once and indeed it was much easier or much more obvious, much more successful. And then I caught the bug and I really enjoy reading about that too. I was in my first year at the time when I started to get involved with it a bit. I really enjoyed going to lectures about refugees and people who meant something. And then it got worse. Then I really started actively looking for that. Where could I attend lectures and meet people who are really working on that?

Although I can imagine that that argument is less relevant in a tight labor market. It is now much more about we have too few people in the first place. We don't find them to be able to do things. You often hear that from employers today. But what I actually hear you saying between the lines is that we may still see inclusion too much from a professional context as, we have to ensure that we recruit people from a different background, from, let's say, one minority group or another. And above all, we have to do that in a way that we don't have to adjust ourselves too hard. Perhaps it is also inevitable that it will require an adjustment on both sides.

Yes, it helps with integration of course. You learn to live together. It's not just up to the person who comes here to adapt.

Yes, that is something I often hear in conversations with employers. It is clear that they notice the will. The realization is there too, but very often it is about avoiding some kind of discomfort. From a concern to do it right. We want to treat everyone decently, but with the people I know who are here now, I already know how to do that. And I don't want to accidentally step on anyone's toes or accidentally do something wrong. But imagine that you find a way to deal with that discomfort in a good way. Then you will ultimately be able to be much more caring and pay much more attention to the needs, even of the people with whom you thought there was no discomfort or no needs. So ultimately I think if you can adapt to much greater diversity, you will suddenly see more diversity among the people you already had around you. And then you can also improve your working atmosphere and working conditions.

Yes, that's true. I certainly know what you are saying now. Not everyone is working on those themes, but it is expected in a corporate culture that you are inclusive and on-board and that you are open to everyone. But it is not surprising that people are a bit suspicious or afraid of the unknown. So what I see as the first step that all organizations have to take if they want to work on this is actually, even if it is an exclusively white organization, you should of course start with the sense of belonging of the colleagues or the employees that you have at that moment. got your house ready. Because if they already don't feel well or already have something like that, not only at work, maybe they also have it from home. A lot of effort is always made for people with a migration background or for people who are unemployed. And I put in so much effort and then I'm not heard at work. All those negative feelings also lead to a bit of a sour attitude, I think. Especially if there is no room at all for conversations or training in the workplace. I personally have a colleague who once confronted me about the fact that I am not a racist, but I also don't understand why I am not allowed to say the N word. And that is also genuinely someone from whom I have never experienced negativity or that is a very sweet, pleasant person. And she almost didn't dare to admit that she didn't understand that and yes, our generation, the digital generation, quickly looks up things. But slightly older colleagues may also be more uncomfortable with that and don't know why I'm not allowed to say that either. Or I don't mean that in a bad way. Also about other words, that might also be about gender themes. There simply has to be a place for this in the organization in order to be able to discuss it and also measure it as an employer.

Okay, that's where the pain points are and I can hire expertise for that or offer something so that colleagues can learn to deal with it. And we sometimes call it a bit of a shyness to act. Sometimes they do not dare to approach someone who looks different. Just out of fear. As you say, but also a bit out of shame. That's not easy. And ultimately people meeting each other. 90% of the time this is positive because people speak to people. And if you are friendly, they will automatically be friendly to you. That's actually very much in the basics. And sometimes I think we are actually inventing very crazy formulas to explain something so human.

You would never have ended up in this podcast chair. You are actually only slightly concerned with that theme today in your current job. I understand from you that it is not yet a major policy issue in Roeselare that is being strongly focused on.

Can I say that? There have been a lot of major advances in recent years, yes. But I think they are still very well behaved in Roeselare and West Flanders. Then we are still very good when I look at Brussels Antwerp, there are many nice examples of which I sometimes think they do it, we can do that too, right? But you have to give people some time.

Give some examples, what comes to your mind? They do it, we can do it too.

In Brussels as well as in Antwerp, there are many people with a migration background who actually hold top positions. But I don't actually know anyone in Roeselare. For example, in the city of Roeselare there are, I almost dare not say, less than five people with a migration background. And that is a very large city government. And it is somewhat the same in many other organizations in West Flanders.

Just before the interview you said that you actually plan to expand that part of your professional life. What is your ambition in this regard?

At the moment, I am sometimes asked to give workshops or keynotes or to devise methodologies together with organizations. In fact, I mainly share what I know.

I'm not saying that I already have very successful methodologies. I have also followed a lot of education and training myself, so I spread the word a bit. But I'm also writing a book. That is also something I would like to continue with. I have always been a big reader. And I write a lot. I have always kept diaries and blogs that are not online. Happy. But I think things like this are important to continue. That I can make something that my heart lies in. And what I also dream very much about is perhaps setting up something for young people in West Flanders with a migration background to teach them how to network and learn to step out of their comfort zone and also dare to enter those white spaces. Because that is something with us, they mix very little. There are also a lot of prejudices on both sides. Uhm. It is also sometimes a shame from different cultural communities if you integrate too hard or push too hard on white spaces. You have to find the right balance, while there are many benefits associated with it. So yes, something like that doesn't exist in our country yet, so I dream about that too. It's so enterprising and doing something with it on my own, just on my own sounds so bad, not on myself but together with other people, but I do want to take an initiative in that. That is something I try to do in addition to my job, which is actually already a busy job. But yes, and then I'm also going to write a book in between. That's more relaxation. That's basically all the frustration.

Because the expectations and standards for women, especially from the culture you come from, are very different than for men.

Yes, actually very traditional. A good woman is one who can cook and clean well. But it is also certainly encouraged to work and to have a job. But it also shows what kind of job you have. For example, the kind of job I do, which requires me to have a lot of social contact with people, including men, and simply have to have a very open attitude, which in many cultures can seem very flirtatious, I even heard this summer. Someone said, you have a very flirty personality. And then I said, can you argue that for once? Yes, you just look straight into the eyes when you talk and you smile. Then I thought, that's just being polite. I also explained, in Belgium these are terms of courtesy. But there it is interpreted as you are open, you are too flirtatious, so yes, that makes you a less reliable wife. So, we are still a little behind on those things, we are still a bit behind. But I certainly don't blame them, because in Kosovo, we have only been allowed to travel visa-free since January this year. So since this year my relatives finally have the chance to see the world and before that they have only known Kosovo. Something that was imposed and it was a very oppressed people. I even have a political past, which is certainly not done, hanging around the city with posters. How dare you?

Yes, where you look straight into the camera.

Yes, straight and smiling. But opinions differ on this. Many people at some point say, ah, good. At some point, I remember when I started becoming an activist. My parents were often told by other parents that they had to stop me and keep me under more control. But once I had made it, I had graduated, but also, I had been elected to the municipal council and then it was allowed, then it was like, oh yes, okay and now I have the feeling that I can do exactly anything. I've already proven myself. But that is of course also a disadvantage, because the bar is simply super high once you have won that respect. Yes, that's also the problem with those role models. You set the bar so high to be a good example. First of all, not everyone wants to do that. That is not for everyone, not everyone is interested in that. But it is also, I always think that I always started with that from a very naive perspective or from a very naive idea that it will work. And then it worked. But also not because I realized what I was doing, I think. Because sometimes I think now, wow, if I had known how much work I had to put into the municipal council, I would never have even dared to start it, for fear that I can't do it. It's really true that naivety has helped me to do things. But yeah, like I say, not everyone wants to do that.

Every now and then, and certainly towards the end of the conversation, I look at Artemis, because she often has a burning question that still needs to be asked.

Yes, perhaps we shouldn't let go of politics completely. But you do mention that it should actually be about connection. I also heard the networking piece mentioned that it is so important. What would your advice be, Denise, on how we can create more connection in society and is perhaps the workplace or workfloor a kind of exercise for this? Or how do you see that?

I certainly agree that connection conveys more strength. If you just look at a net, that is also connected to each other. And the sturdier that net, yes, the stronger the whole. When I think about that, I am also reminded very much of Bart Brandsma's polarization theory. I think the problem at the moment is that the extremes are speaking very loudly. Yes, those extremes often communicate in a certain way that it is understandable for many people what they say or not with difficult words. So I think, purely based on that theory, and that is also a very well-founded theory, we should put more of the center in the picture and let more of the say. These are often the more modest people or something like that, the more in the background. And they have a lot to say, but not much is actually discussed. In the workplace, to answer your question... I'm also not really in favor of people who say, I'm in a meeting and everyone has to have their own opinion. I'm not really a fan of the principle that everyone has to say their opinion. There are sometimes such strong opinions that sound fairly high-level because that person may be used to talking that way, which means that someone with a different opinion, who may not be able to formulate it as well, but who falls into the middle group, something more nuanced, is not discussed because that opinion was already such that yes, anti or for and really very outspoken, which has a very deterrent effect. And I think, as an organization or as a team leader or manager, I always recommend keeping those people in check and that is already challenging. I often sit in meetings with people who have very strong opinions and then I think, yes, okay, the discussion leader could actually have paid more attention to that, because I haven't heard half of it. Or those people, you may see from their facial expression that they did not agree. So in that respect, starting small, I think you can make a difference in just one team meeting. Not everyone should always say their opinion and I think that is true across the board. Not all opinions should always be asked.

Okay, interesting philosophical thought with which we conclude this very interesting conversation. Thank you so much Deniza for coming all the way here and having this very interesting conversation together. And I wish you much success in everything else you undertake.

Thank you and thanks for inviting me. It was very pleasant.